Empathy is required to take responsibility.
“Take responsibility for your actions.” How many of you heard these words as a child, or uttered them as a parent? Mom knew what she meant. You know what you mean. But does your ASD loved one? Have you ever wondered why you even have to say this to an adult (or think it)? How often do you wonder why your ASD adult doesn’t seem to take responsibility for their own behavior?
When one of our members, Julie commented in our recent video conference on the topic of “Fatigue is Normal in ASD/NT Relationships,” she was referring to the mental fatigue of constantly rearranging her life for her two Autism Spectrum family members. Among the many things she finds fatiguing is that “. . . My husband takes no responsibility for his behaviors. . .”
I agreed right away with her comment because I have experienced the same dilemma, but then I wondered what it means to “Take Responsibility for Your Actions.” Think about it. We NTs do this all of the time. To take responsibility for our behavior, or our actions means to consider HOW our behaviors affect others. In order to do that, we have to anticipate how others might feel or think about our actions. We have to assess how the relationship will be impacted by our words and deeds. We have to care about these things too — because of caring means we try harder to keep the relationship healthy.
This sounds like empathy to me. Empathy is to care enough to anticipate how the other person will feel before you take an action or speak a word. Empathy is to care enough about the other person’s feelings to recognize they may be affected by our behavior before or after the fact. Empathy is to apologize when our behavior is unhelpful or damaging. In fact, empathy is going so far as to repair the rift we may have caused.
Since our “Aspies” do not have empathy (as defined by the Empathy Triad) they don’t take responsibility for their actions. Without empathy, they don’t anticipate our feelings, nor recognize our feelings, nor apologize for their conduct, nor attempt a repair for our distress (or confusion, hurt, annoyance, etc.). They might care at some level, but they do not demonstrate it by taking responsibility for their actions.
Instead, they assume all is well because they mean well. “Aspies” struggle to understand that their good intentions are not enough. It’s a start to have good intentions certainly. But as my mother used to quote an old aphorism, “The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.” To take responsibility for one’s behavior (as Julie noted) requires the empathy to use your good intentions to clean up the mess you inadvertently created. It’s not that you are a terrible person for causing distress to the other person. It is caring to use your empathy skills to repair the emotional connection that means so much to others. It is this empathic behavior of taking responsibility that is so important to respecting, honoring, and loving the other person.
Without empathy, our “Aspies” seem not to take responsibility for their actions. These are the common phrases that we often hear from them, which denote this lack of empathy and no attempt to repair the damage:
- “What do you want from me?”
- “If you didn’t want to know my opinion, why did you ask?”
- “Why are you always complaining?”
- “Why didn’t you tell me that you wanted that?”
- “You never said that.”
- “It’s not my fault. You didn’t tell me.”
Need I say that these phrases are stupefying for NTs? We would never say these things. Our empathy circuits make us evaluate the situation and try to resolve the unpleasantness. We want to keep the connections with our loved ones whole and healthy. So, we look at ourselves and how we can do better. Not so with our “Aspies.”
Can Awareness substitute for Empathy?
In stark contrast to Julie’s revelation, I have received many angry messages from “Aspies” who are incredulous that I would say they have no empathy. They describe themselves as “highly sensitive.” In fact, one woman describes herself as so sensitive that,
“. . . I am so bombarded with strong feelings/discomfort/sensory overload, I feel unable to sympathize with others, even when they need me to be. I get frustrated with them and believe my needs are greater since they physically/emotionally feel like they’re killing me. But I wonder, am I unable?”
This woman’s subtle awareness is significant. She is wondering about her ability to empathize. She muses that perhaps awareness can substitute for empathy or even lead to empathy. It is something to consider. But I think there is no substitute for the intrinsic ability to rise above one’s own feelings and really listen to the heart of another person.
In response to my blog, “Empathy: ‘Asperger’s Style’” she ends her comment with this very poignant observation:
“As much as this article was uncomfortable to read, it opened my eyes to the realization that I almost never think about what I might put my parents/siblings/friends through when I push for autonomy and express my needs/wants, but fail to remember theirs are just as important. . .”
Yes, I do think awareness helps. “Aspies” like this woman want to be understood for the autistic features that make their lives so fraught with complications. It is equally important for “Aspies” to understand that NTs can only handle so much self-absorption and emotional disconnect. I concur wholeheartedly with the woman’s final comments when she alludes to the fact that awareness at least can be a start:
“. . . I have obviously been hypocritical in the past and hope to do better in the future. Thank you for sharing your insights. I hope that by mutual understanding/respect/love NTs and Aspies can learn to live/love one another in more compassionate ways, too.”
Taking responsibility is a moral choice.
You will find more about this topic in my upcoming book “EMPATHY: It’s More Than Words.” It’s a moral choice to take responsibility for your actions, whether that is motivated by conscious awareness or empathic “knowing.” Both might be valid ways to get to the loving connections we all desire – NT and “Aspie” alike.
I would like to hear from you regarding this complex topic. Let me know what you think about the connection between awareness and empathy and taking responsibility for your actions.
![Going Over The Edge](https://kmarshack.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/11/Going-Over-The-Edge-450-min.jpg")
How timely, as just recovering, again, from my aspie husband’s inability to apologize or repair after he says hurtful things in an argument. We all say hurtful things to loved ones in the heat of the moment, but it is the demonstration of genuine sorrow for having hurt our loved ones that generates connection, growth and intimacy. Otherwise we are left with distance, distrust and real misery, which is how I find myself after 30 years.
Nicole, I feel for you. I’ve been married to my ASD husband for nearly 24yrs., (newly diagnosed) and the impact is so hard on the everyday life after so many years of disconnect. The recovery is getting harder to bounce back from. We now see a very experienced ASD psychologist who has her work cut out for her. I am now the one disconnecting (not making eye contact, lack of conversation, etc.) because I am just trying to protect myself from getting hurt again even though I do know it’s not his intentions – he just can’t even see it unless I point it out after the fact. But the impact has already happened for me & is hard to recoup from.
Our psychologist says in the heat of the moment his ‘house is on fire’ and that’s why he can’t be logical (people end up outside their burning home with a Walmart lamp instead of home videos or their purse). Made sense to me. He also legitimately doesn’t remember what he’s said when he’s in that zone which is frustrating because how can he feel sorry when he genuinely doesn’t think he said it that way? She will help us walk through this in time.
She also mentioned I’ve been living under trauma with likely 3 people on the spectrum in our home for over 20+ years so that’s why my brain is mush. I find it harder and harder to recover but a book by Lysa Terkeurst has helped me quite a bit: Forgiving What You Can’t Forget. Her personal story makes her authentic so I can listen knowing she has been through major hurts herself (father left, moved in with Grandmother, molested by neighbour, had abortion, little sister died, husband cheated, had cancer, etc.). She’s been a good mentor for me to keep hanging in there but not at the expense of myself which is what’s been happening.
Hang in there! Covid has been tougher to get out & feel love from others, but self-care is huge, and I need to remind myself of this daily now, so you have an extra 6+years on my marriage to work through. Nicole, you are loved, you are valued, you have purpose. I highly recommend a therapist who is familiar with adults on the spectrum and their impacts on long term spouses. I also see one of those to help me process and assure myself that I’m not crazy. She knows I’m not leaving – I just need assistance to help me process what happens sometimes.
Take care of yourself as best you can literally every single day with multiple ways of finding fulfilment and enjoyment. If our tanks are filled up we can genuinely be happy to see them.
It is wonderful to see these loving comments offered to total strangers. Obviously we recognize each other and can feel the suffering. I also want to thank Beth for mentioning that trauma is a feature of these relationships. I know I was severely traumatized and I am still recovering many years later. The other day I watched a man weep as he described why he left his ASD wife. He stayed as long as he could. He waited until the children had left home. But for his own sanity, he had to leave. Unfortunately the trauma hangs on.
Wow, I just received an email from you about asd’s not taking responsibility for their behavior. I find this to be one of the most difficult characteristics in the man to whom i am married
and people in general. It IS a moral choice. Did the universe suggest you send me this email?;) This was such great timing!
Thank you so much.
judy from judeb53@yahoo.com
There is a plus to living with an aspie. If you have insecurities because of your life growing up and then you divorced someone because they were unfaithful, an aspie is a better choice. They are not going to be unfaithful because they don’t feel love for anyone. That gives some peace of mind and is a type of consolation. Not that you can wholly trust them, they have their own determination and can justify their decisions. You have to put legal and financial safeguards for yourself in place.
Don’t love them too much. Live your own life too and try to ignore their irritating behaviour. We are not perfect. Of course you shouldn’t put up with mental cruelty but see the balance in your life and look outward for your interest.
Still heartbreaking but if it provides you with protection it is worth staying, for yourself.
While most ASD folks are painfully honest and faithful from my extensive reading on the subject, sadly my husband wasn’t. And he has not taken true responsibility for his lying to me for a very painful two year period. Says that didn’t have a choice because I was so angry when I first found out that he lied to self protect. No choice? Okay. His diagnosis came after the short-lived affair, so that’s a plus.
My ASD wife of 22 years has had two affairs one a full on secretive physical affair – to an old boyfriend she said she didn’t see a problem meeting up with – who for a time she described as her “soul mate”, which when the affair was caught she simply carried on for another 12 months until it crashed and burnt – now 12 years later an “emotional” long distance affair with another former boyfriend (who apparently gets her and understands her – of course he would via text and just two school reunions later!!!!) – “almost copy paste special” recently discovered after 9 months of messaging including sexual content and again showing some remorse for the impact on me and our two daughters but carrying on regardless.
I have not found my higher functioning ASD partner either honest or faithful – but totally get the fact she struggles with empathy and responds to her feelings without foresight or much hindsight!
I have tried to be loving and patient but when I try and help her to frame criticisms in a more productive and engaging way I am told I am stopping her from being her authentic self – which has contributed to her disconnect…go figure!
She is having some time out of our family home – with my support, to gain some solitude (if that is indeed what it is) to recover from work, family and emotional burnout and magnified menopause due to ASD – which I can not understate how impactful this has been on her and us.
I love my ASD wife (her energy, glamour and intelligence) but am reaching the end of my own empathy levels and emotional tolerance/ stamina and almost endless optimism is nearly drained away.
I don’t think I will ever be logical enough or perfect enough for my ASD wife 😔
Honestly, for most Aspie males I think it’s a lack of opportunity more than anything. Most are so awkward, clueless, and rude that the women they encounter want absolutely nothing to do with them, and no wonder. It’s hard to cheat when no one wants you.
Hello Sue I am currently in a marriage with an undiagnosed high functioning autistic individual and we are having so many problems. While I am educating on so much I seen you commented about legal and financial safeguards.. can you elaborate more on what I can do and how I can get those in place, please?
My Aspie husband has (online/emotionally) cheated on me 6 times in the 15 years we’ve been together. Don’t fool yourself, it isn’t love they are looking for when they cheat. In my experience it’s seeking a sense of validation for something you may have disagreed with them on. They thrive on the new comforting attention echoing their perspective, it feels good so they seek it out…it usually starts out seeming innocent, till it’s not.
It doesn’t hurt any less.
That isn’t true. My husband who has Asperger’s before we got married had been on multiple dating sites talking to at least five other women. They’d exchange nude photos, discuss sexual things, and even discuss living together or meeting up. Just because someone has autism doesn’t mean they can’t cheat.
Yes aspires do cheat.
Mine is doing it right now. Getting ready to dump him. They can have each other.
Beth, thank you for sharing your info on what your therapist said. I do agree their house is on fire in the moment because of anxiety. But, it’s no excuse for them to abuse their spouse when we don’t deserve it. Also, I have found they don’t take accountability because they don’t remember. That is also an abusive statement for the spouse to hear without any closure we so desperately need, it just leaves us hanging. I’m glad you found a therapist with knowledge and is helping you cope. I’m so tired of the whole abusive marriage, sometimes, I just want to quit. I pray to God for strength just struggling through another day.
My husband over apologises all the time. He apologises when he doesn’t need to. Apologises for things he has no control over like my chronic pain. He’s always saying sorry, except for when he actually does this one specific, hurtful thing. He gets angry at me whenever I make a suggestion or question a process and usually I have done so because the way he plans to do something is 10x harder or more costly than it needs to be. If it is something that only impacts him then I keep my mouth shut but if it is me doing the extra work or the extra spending is pretty high then I can’t say nothing.
In those moments he gets angry and treats me like I’m stupid and after the fact, when he realises I was right, he never apologises for his outburst. It hurts so much but instead of saying sorry he finds a way to blame his autism. Like assigning blame to something other than himself.
Empathy or not, that seems like his ego is just more important than healing the hurt in the relationship. If comes across as stubbornness and not just lack of awareness. He is diagnosed autistic but is the classic ‘aspie’ with his polished masking skills, high IQ and special interests. It often feels like his pet hate is being wrong about anything and he chucks a tantrum if anyone so much as infers that he is not the most knowledgeable about anything.
I explain things in life which I do because of my ADHD, and it is apologetically because I feel terrible that I can be busy all day and not finish the one, most important thing. Sometimes I will keep going til I should be in bed to finally get things done. But I would never use it to excuse something hurtful. I don’t understand how people can use a diagnosis as a free pass to be A$$holes
It’s easier to apologize when it is masking and gets the desired result. It takes courage to apologize for a wrong you actually are aware of and feel badly about. Without empathy, many on the Spectrum are loathe to apologize for wrongs they are aware of because it is excruciating to them to have erred. It is easier to blame the spouse, or kids, or babysitter.
Even allistic (i. e. neurotypical) people often fail to apologize for their behavior when they’ve acted irresponsibly, immaturely, or have hurt friends and/or spouses in some way or other. They can be even worse than neurodiverse people, including those with ASD and/or ADD or ADHD.
While it is true that all people can struggle with apologies due to egos getting in the way. The point of this blog is to help explain why Autists struggle with apologies specifically. Specifically it is tough for Autists to apologize when their intentions are good. However whether intended or not, if a word or a behavior harms another person, it is important to apologize. This is what I teach in the 7-Step Interface Protocol.
Seeing a disproportion between the number of comments by aspies and those by allistic people, I wonder what the aspies’ perspective would be… as potentially one myself, and regardless of me getting a diagnosis, I mask a lot, I’d say my impoliteness aand defensiveness is sometimes just a consequence of how I’ve been treated in some instances growing up and how neglectful or judgemental people have been with some of my needs and actions at times. I think I didn’t learn to apologize because people around me didn’t, because they felt entitled to making me fit into the social mold that could fit them so comfortably.
Thank you for this perspective. Of course human behavior is part nature, part nurture. But what isn’t often explained is that 80% of who we are is nature, or the blueprint you were born with. We all recieve a human blueprint, not a frog or a tomato plant. That human blueprint unfolds and grows into an adult with the help of nurture (parenting, schooling, community and culture). If you start out with the blueprint of autistic, you are profoundly shaped by that design and it is very apparent by the time most children are age 6. Masking is a natural byproduct of autism, because of the transactional mindset that emerges from over-reliance on cognitive analysis. The dominoes start to fall when the autistic child meets the neurotypical world at about age 5-6 when they start school. Before then they are often protected and indulged by their parents, but the parents cannot protect their “different” child from the ravages of a community and culture that is confused by the NeuroDiverse blueprint. The NeuroDiverse child steps up the masking in response to their excellent cognitive observational skills. of course mimicking human behavior is not really mastering the interpersonal world of the Empathy Triad which consists of the three levels of Empathy (Cognitive, Emotional and Intuitive), Context, and Conversation.So this delicate child falls further behind socially, and gets battered and bruised by the subtle and not-so-subtle rejection of the dominant culture. Where do apologies come in? It is ever so difficult to apologize for micro-aggressions when they aren’t recognized. I hope to clarify this in my 7-Step Interface Protocol. Step 7 is literally to apologize, but this includes haveing fully mastered the other steps that bridge the divide between NeuroDiverse and NeuroTypical. Plus to apologize meaningfully means to forgive others and yourself for not knowing, not fully understanding the system that shaped you.
Hi Emma, I can very much relate to your comments . The angry responses to suggestions for a more streamlined approach are so hard for me to accept, especially when it’s not costing more. Just watching the inefficient, long-winded procedures is excruciating, isn’t it? Especially when there are other more pressing chores that just remain undone. It’s like they prefer to do things the hard way, or that they had an original idea, and are compelled to stick with it, even if they can actually see that there’s a better way. Or maybe they just like the process. eg. How is tending an asparagus patch for about 20 hours worth it for about 30 asparagus spears? I can only laugh to myself so I don’t let it get to me.
I’ve encountered this. I do everything, literally everything. We live off of his income which is veterans disability because he was in the army for I believe a year. I had a job but his views on gender roles are so extreme that he made me lose my job and sometimes I feel he makes me do everything so that by the time I finish I’m so exhausted and just want to go to bed. I’ve been isolated, no friends, no family, no therapist, no supports. The entire day and night revolves around him and his needs, wants, and expectations. He states that he feels like the victim, like he is the one who has it so hard. But it’s hard for me to see that point of view when he doesn’t have to lift a finger. His entire day consists of his special interests. If something upsets me and I ask him not to do it, instead of not doing it he will just try to do it when I’m not paying attention. When I try to express my feelings or my view of how things are going he instantly invalidates me, minimizes my pain, tells me my view is warped or wrong, he tells me that I am a covert narcissist simply because I was diagnosed with b.p.d. even though I’ve explained to him what it means for me is that my emotions are so intense that they take on a personality of their own. The only reason it’s not full on multiple personalities is because I know it’s me the entire time. We both have a p.t.s.d. diagnosis, I have ADHD, OCD, anxiety, depression. And since being with him I’ve developed autoimmune conditions. He tries to tell me that my conditions are fake, even though my body shows physical signs often of these conditions. Fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, chronic migraines, narcolepsy, arthritis, eczema, now I’ve developed perioral dermatitis and yeast, I have chronically high cortisol levels, muscle spasms, edema. I feel like I never have time to even form my own thoughts anymore. I do all of the cooking, all of the cleaning, all of the errands, I ensure that everyone is taken care of and the bills are paid on time. He tells me I spend too much money when I don’t spend much on just myself. I buy myself vape juice and coils for my vape which is the only thing I have left to myself. I stopped wearing make up, I stopped dying my hair and getting hair cuts, I only buy clothes maybe twice a year at the good will because that’s the only place he is okay with. He has a strict schedule for eating since he does keto, and then carb day, and then he observes shabbat. It’s gruesome to me. If I don’t show interest when he’s working out he gets upset, but I can’t because I’m so exhausted I just want to rest. I’ve gotten married to him and changed my last name to satisfy his complaints, taken my birth control out and had 6 miscarriages in a row which has killed my body over the last two years. I’m now about to give birth and this entire pregnancy has been so exhausting, he isn’t supportive, he doesn’t understand why I’m upset or why I feel uncared for or unloved. When I say I need to feel like he respects me he tells me women don’t need respect men do. What’s worse is the baby is a girl and he has all of these expectations on her already and I am worried because if me an adult can barely handle the weight of being with him how will a growing child deal with it all. When he cheated on me before we got married he acted like he was going to change, and even now when I’m super pregnant and exhausted if I don’t perform my marriage duties as a wife and provide him intercourse he either verbally complains and stomps around or threatens to go find it elsewhere. He often talks about divorce, often states that I am a curse not a gift, often says that I’m the worst thing that’s ever happened to him. His parents and siblings don’t talk to him because he took his disabled brothers best friend away because the man had different political views than my husband and my husband bullied him away basically. Anything that upsets me emotionally I explain it in great detail, I even send Bible verses as requested, only male speakers as requested. But instead of hearing or understanding I get told I’m a plastic Christian, that I don’t believe in God, that I’ve never read the Bible, and that I don’t know what I’m talking about. He states that I’m the one not being a good Christian wife when I’ve been doing everything I can in every way that I can. I’m two days away from being 38 weeks pregnant which is when I’ve given birth to all of my babies before, Everytime I have contractions or pain and tell him I think labor is coming soon he dismisses me and tells me I don’t look like anything is wrong with me and that I’m fine and not in labor. Keep In mind this is my 6th birth, he’s never even witnessed one birth or labor. He has two kids with a previous woman but because she didn’t have him at the hospital and didn’t give them his last name he doesn’t associate with them. Even down to my cat, I tell him don’t pet his back or hips because of an injury when he was a baby and homeless and got hit before I rescued him, he doesn’t listen. My cat has hot spots from chewing for a while and scabs under his chin, he was puking up cat food too. He claims I spend too much money on my cat because I have to buy him chicken free dry food along with wet food so he doesn’t puke. The creams and stuff for his skin he has an issue with because of the cost. He complained about over spending on baby items when everything I’ve gotten has been second hand. I did get a few hygiene items from Walmart but I told him children and animals as well as dependents and wives and homes cost money. I feel like I’ve tried to express myself in every way possible down to being so clear for instance asking for help with rinsing the food off the dishes he uses, he then just fills up the dishes with water and leaves them with food in the sink with water in them. I ask him to take the trash down because we’re on the second floor and it’s hard with my belly to do so, I even put the trash and recycling right by the door so he sees it. And it just sits there. I asked him to just let me relax and mentally prepare for the baby and to make his own meals the last few weeks of pregnancy and even now he claims he can do it and says okay but never does it. He will just huff and puff and complain that his food isnt made on time. He says ” all you do is an occasional meal it isn’t hard”. Tell that to my swollen feet, fire crotch, and back pain, along with a baby who feels like she’s trying to rip out of my stomach and hips. All of this and the go to excuse is ” I have Asperger’s autism” it’s not diagnosed because he refuses to go get diagnosed, it’s like he fears being told he either doesn’t have that or he’s afraid of being told he’s a narcissist or sociopath or abuser. I don’t really know.
Love and true empathy to you. I hear you with my ears, heart and soul.
Wife of an Aspie,
Your husband IS a covert narcissist. He is not ASD. He is using that as an unverified (won’t get diagnosed) excuse and coverup for his narcissism. He is mirroring your disorders and projecting his behaviors onto you.
Unfortunately there is no cure nor treatment for the narcissist. You’re only option is to protect yourself by getting out of the relationship. They will NEVER change.
If you aren’t comfortable with that idea, at least educate yourself about this disorder so you can minimize the damage they can cause you.
I hope you are in a better place. Please, please take care of you!
Nicole,
Thank you for sharing. I also deal with this after arguments – which I believe my aspie husband starts – just because. He simply has no idea how “non-caring” his words are. And often he thinks he is funny. For over 20 years for me in this marriage. As I was always busy at work and other extra-curricular activities, it seems I did not notice. Now, in semi-retirement, I see clearly and Dr. Kathy has helped me so much.
Continued good luck to you
Thank you for your honest and impactful contribution to this thread.
I resonate with your feelings and find myself echoing your situation.
It’s good to know that I am not alone
Here here mine never ever takes responsibility for his behaviour he ties himself in knots blaming everyone else no empathy no love in this joke of a relationship
I love finding Kathy Marshack on these websites. She really tells it the way it really is, instead of sugar coating it. Looking back to my childhood, I now realize my own mother and her mother also we on th autism spectrum. They both lacked the kind of displayed empathy a child needs to feel safe and loved. My mother was touch sensitive, so all 5 children were never touched, told we were loved or even make to feel wanted. Kathy, I love your examples of things people without empathy say compared to what most nt people say. My partner daughter, son, mother in law and mother lacked the empathy I need. Thanks Kathy, you have no idea how much you have helped.
I’m with you Nicole. My husband has no empathy and is unable to remember the hurtful things he says when he’s having a meltdown let alone offer a genuine apology. His son refuses to have contact with him because my husband left his passport at home to travel overseas.
My husband took a domestic flight from our home to his son’s city where they intended to travel to Europe. His son was paying for the trip as a gesture of goodwill. Upon arrival my husband said that he had left his passport at home. He literally just sat there and let his son work out how he was gonna get his father’s passport before they departed. To this day, my husband cannot work out why his son refuses to speak to him. Obviously this was the last straw for his son who has spent his life trying to understand his father’s behaviour.
This is a second marriage for both of us and after 10 years, I am only just beginning to accept (not understand) his behaviour. We sleep in seperate bedrooms and have a friendship rather than the type of marriage that I’d hoped for. When he has meltdowns and blames me I have found that it’s best (for me) to remains silent and not to defend myself or attack him. I simply and calmly walk away. It’s hard at first but I need to do this in order to find the space within myself to hold and breathe. I would highly recommend listening to talks by Canadian psychologist Jordan Peterson. He has been instrumental in helping me find myself when I am reeling in emotional pain. 🙂
Dear Kathy, You are an expert and support for me. Thankyou for allowing me to receive your emails.
I ask myself why I have not yet joined the video meetings because I want them to be there when I do join. Which I shall when I accept this problem. Yet at the moment, your support through your blog and contact, fulfils my need. Thankyou for that Kathy.
I wonder if in some way his condition allows me to feel security because he demands nothing of me emotionally.
He won’t change. He takes himself off into his books on the afterlife and finds happiness in the church choir and meditating on The Bible. He is incapable of emotion and only engages with others on his subjects but comes alive with others, smiling and conversational. Lots of husbands are like that. They are bored with their family. He does whatever he likes without discussion with me. Shows no interest yet suggested we take another holiday. I told him I’d rather stay home because he doesn’t talk to me so it’s a lot of effort to spent hours in a car in silence. We can try mini, overnight breaks on this island where we live. He has worked hard and we can enjoy the fruits of his labour in our home and pets. I also worked hard but less successfully because I was blessed with a lower level of intelligence.
How do you feel about your life now, Kathy? Is it a good and happy life with all you need?
Dear Sue, your response breaks my heart. I too was the less intelligent one and was told as much often. I think we are blessed with heart. I am not with my undiagnosed aspie partner any longer. I miss the illusion of happiness that was our marriage, I am as Dr. Kathy speaks. one of the win-win people. I can make happy out of anything. I say do as you wish, going on vacation with mine, was as everything was, hit or miss. The best time was when he had a sinus infection from flying and I enjoyed the daylights out of the grand canyon in the snow. It’s all about self-care! Can’t wait for the new book Dr. Kathy!!
I’m glad you brought up “meaning well”. It’s an even bigger difference with NTs than the AS’ behavior’s effect on others, on finding out what that effect is. That can be part of an even broader difference in values: Judging other people’s (NT’s) acts based on the value of intent being more important than actual harm caused. Some occurrences are a big issue when they evaluate and lead co-workers and politicians and their children with this different value.
Hi Kathy,
I do think awareness helps on the road to empathy. I am pondering, after reading this article, how far ‘an aspie’ can go with empathy. My undiagnosed husband of 30 yrs (also AA member)has finally embraced therapy & a psychiatrist. We are both lucky because he needed someone besides me to increase his awareness about ‘misses’ in. our communication around emotional issues. I am amazed. He is able to see things from my perspective (and communicate that in conversation, start to comprehend how I feel and working on controlling his emotions about them. I am hopeful even if he doesn’t get to true emotional empathy. I do understand he means well.
BTW, I often don’t get to hear ANY words when attempting to have discussion about anything emotional. My husband can now describe it as a ‘freeze.’ He says his brain has no words in it either even though he hears me. He is learning, with his therapist, how to get around that & say something – even ‘I need some time to respond.’
Hi, good topic! I am thinking that some Aspies seem to be better at gaining intellectual “awareness” even if it’s not intuitive/emotional. My Aspie son is one. If I can stay super calm and hard core rational he sometimes gets it. My husband on the other hand does not seem to get the intellectual awareness either. Maybe because he didn’t have help when he was younger.. maybe because his Autism is more severe? Or maybe the penny just hasn’t dropped yet.. as his therapist tells me, to make my point ad nauseum and eventually it will sink in. So I keep telling him things like, if you hug me so fiercely it hurts.. it’s a lot of work for minimal awareness. I do think that some level of responsibility could follow from awareness but with the Aspies I know that’s not a given.
Dr Kathy. How can I start receiving your emails? I only recently found this Facebook group after 18 years of marriage to my as husband. I am a Christian wife hanging on by the skin of my teeth and the unending grace of God. My as husband is not a Christian, won’t do counseling of any kind and has no interest in me at any level – other than what’s for meals and doing his laundry. He is not an intentionally mean person as he prides himself on being mr nice guy – on his own terms of course. Opens doors for me, etc which his dad always insisted his sons do. But absolutely no thought behind it at all. It’s more to impress others. I have never had any health or medical issues, but recently had knee surgery for a torn meniscus. When we got home, he sat at the table and waited for me to prepare and serve his dinner. Did not offer any help whatsoever. If I ask him to do something he will. But only if asked. That fact reminds me that He simply does not see me, nor does he want to. It’s such a lonely life. I always think of it as being a single person with a husband to take care of. I know no one at all who believes me or understands. He’s a master masker in front of others. This group has been like salve to a wound. There really ARE others out there like me. Virtual hugs to all of them.
Joanne
Hi Joanne. I sent you a message in answer to your questions. Thank you for wanting to be part of our group. To receive my newsletters just go to my website, http://www.ASD-NTrelationships.com and sign up in the little blue box on each page. You can also learn more about the online support group at Meetup by clicking on the Meetup logos on my page.
Dear Dr. Kathy, Found this article when I was doing a search about autism and responsibility. In listening to your comments and that of those who have responded to decide; I have made an observation. It seems that we, including myself, have a propensity to want to judge others who are different from ourself And somehow have a need to change them to be like us. I have a grandson age 20 who is autistic,. I am an undiagnosed ADHD and see so many similarities and dad I find myself wanting to see my grandson because I’m more like me. Lol and yet it is it funny. It is pathetic that we constantly try to change our expect change from our spouses our family and our coworkers. Why is it it not possible for us to more than give mental ascent to the fact that all of creation is uniquely different? So the real question comes… How do we learn to live with our self knowing that we may be just as offensive or make others around us just as uncomfortable as they make us. How can we come to that place of loving our self and others And moving toward the baseline of him OK you’re OK, we are just different.
My situation exactly! ‘No interest in me at any level’, all the more obvious should I ever be unwell.
Thank God for Dr. Kathy and this group, just knowing we are not alone counts for so much.
Joanne, I completely understand your feelings because I have felt the same. Married 24 yrs. to a newly diagnosed AS, we are Christians as well (although I don’t know how that fits into his thoughts sometimes), and I took my vows very seriously not knowing he had very different wiring or as he says I have very different wiring (which is accurate from his). His negative thoughts have only become vocal in the past couple of years or so. Like a switch @ age 50, things changed. The fights are harsh. The vindictiveness is brutal to bear. The indifference towards me is hurtful. Very few people believe me as well. I would not accept abuse and always stand up for myself and will not allow myself to stay if it gets to a certain point as I absolutely do not agree with that but we’re not there yet. But he does love me, and I do know that from the very infrequent glimpses of softness. He is trying and so am I. I am working on accepting his strange behaviours by actually writing down ways I need to self-talk and maybe approach the situation differently than I usually do with NT relationships. He will gladly do what I need most times but I often forget he can’t sense my needs like other people. Ex: When I feel lonely…1 – remember he loves you, he just doesn’t express it in the ways I need to feel it. 2 – be honest & tell him I need affection. 3 – get out with other friends who give that normal back & forth conversation. 4 – do more studying of God’s love for me to help my doubts. 5 – listen to upbeat Christian music on Accuradio.
All of these things are helpful and I use the written down statements as a reference guide to remind me ways to combat what I’m feeling with either truth so I don’t let my brain go places that aren’t helpful, or to help me with my mood and perception in a positive way. I know it’s super hard. And yes, it pretty much is going to be up to you because he likely can’t ‘try’ anything for longer than 2 wks. max, but our perception of their love for us can get skewed because it’s so different from NTs in our life. When I look logically at his actions now knowing he has AS, I can see his perspective, and his logic. It doesn’t match mine at all, but I can at least see where he’s coming from. But maybe specifically ask him for your needs (must be specific ‘to do’ thing – not vague like ‘love me’) or even prepare him in advance so he has warning to adjust to maybe making a meal for the two of you. Or to help you in the kitchen. We can’t cook together without driving each other nuts, but we have learned this past couple of months that we can do separate parts (he peels apples while I make the crumble, or he cuts up veggies while I make the pizza crust). I am not giving up yet and not without all the fight I have in me, which is a lot because as Christians, we have the Holy Spirit fighting this battle for us as well. As Lysa Terkeurt said, “When I feel I can’t go on one more minute, I’m just going to leave a little bit more room for God to move.” I also like Gretchen Saffles statement, “The missing piece to our peace is the steady intake of Truth.” God is your strength. Seek, search, claw your way through every day to find Truth in personal studies, Bible studies, anything at all – but you’ve got to spend time each day hearing the Truth about your value, your worth, your purpose. And sometimes I need to hear that to remind me of husband’s as well. Many, many hearts are with you, struggling…and Joanne, you are never alone even when it feels like you are. Feelings are not truth.
I can ‘so’ identify, Joanne. Have been married 30 yrs to my Aspie but only realized 10 yrs ago ‘why’ he acts/responds/behaves as he does. It’s truly a LONELY life. When we both worked it was tolerable as we were with others much of the time. Now, both being retired fulltime and living in small aptmt, it’s incredibly lonely with no emotional connection or conversation. When I lost my daughter unexpectedly to a brain anuerysm and when I had my breast cancer there was not one attempt to console, comfort or even show any emotional connection. It’s as if ‘if it’s not his problem, he doesn’t have to deal with it. ‘ When he makes a harsh comment or criticism that really hurts, there is no attempt to apologize. He doesn’t see the need for it! Even if I suggested working with a therapist for better communication he would NEVER agree. And, as you stated, no one understands if we do try to explain. We’re viewed as being complainers. I actually look forward to the day when I can rediscover ‘who I am’ and not feel I have to answer to anyone.
I know exactly what you mean Joanne ..My husband of 20 years is mr nice guy that’s his cultivated image and like yours opens doors for me etc it’s just role play though . He is self absorbed and quick to anger( and seeth ) if things are not on his terms . His way or the wrong way . He is totally inflexible . He has left our family but tells our children it’s because of me he left and that he has not left them. Of course he has left them but he refuses to take any responsibility for this and justifies his behaviour by putting blame on me . He is an undiagnosed aspie from a family of diagnosed aspies so it’s clear to anyone who knows about ASD and so see him as he really is not as he pretends to be . Totally self absorbed but seems to think he is a good guy – he just does not get it . His diagnosed brother / nephews and very odd father have not lead to any penny drop moments he really cannot be told or made to listen about his likely autism when all things are considered . He has all but destroyed me – leave your family but it’s on you you you could not cope I say to him -he simply won’t admit any responsibility can’t say that so blames me without any regard for the impact on
me or the children who then think poor daddy !! .A bad situation made all the worse when your children think poor daddy is a good person. and mummy is the problem . He plays victim but he is the problem . Nobody understands it all feels so unfair .I am the glue holding kids together he suits himself totally . I have put up with zero affection in marriage and now being blamed for his inability to manage coping with ( his )family life . I feel totally broken and think aspies should come with a heath warning and probably should not marry because they simply cannot be supportive to their spouse . It’s all just role play and I feel i’ve been played .I have full filled a role in his life – now he is done with that . Now he has left he acts as though i don’t exist . He has airbrushed me away . I am disposed of . It has been very difficult and nobody knows how awful it is . Thank you all out there who see me and hear me . Sorry for you all and your inner pain that is ignored by others who see a very different man to the actual one he is . The cardboard cut out robot man that he really is – mr nice?? no mr kid on . Joanne seek joy every day on your terms distance your self from him he is not your joy he is his own joy and that’s all he cares about .
Agreed! If you know that you plan on spending most of your time alone outside of work and have to be asked to do something, go somewhere, etc. unless it’s around a video game or whatever your special interest is, you will need to be upfront and honest with the person you are about to marry and tell them, you may get 10 percent of my time ( not including work hours if they work) and that is all I plan to give you. This goes beyond difficulty communicating (which can be learned or at least improved upon) … this is an issue of interest. It doesn’t even work with a woman with ASD and a man with ASD. Lack of interest in a reciprocal, mutual relationship is abandonment and grounds for divorce, even biblically. The issue of ASD is mostly around lack of interest and boredom with others. There are plenty of people who get rejected but desire connection and will keep trying. Do not be deceived. Deception is the biggest hallmark of high functioning autism and really never should have been lumped with classical autism, even if there are some similar characteristics. Plenty of things share similarities but are not same. If you stay with them, you will enable them and they will likely not repent or change their behaviors ( the ones they know are wrong) . If you leave, there is more of a chance of change, but mostly unlikely. For Christian women, he has already left you and is likely not a believer, as the behaviors that he is continuing to do have been pointed out concretely and explicitly, and he keeps on anyway with the ASD excuse. Just because you may have a disability, mostly extreme selfishness, does not give you license to act as you wish, esp since you have the knowledge of what you are doing. Many of these men, in particular have abandoned you spiritually, emotionally and physically (women and some men don’t want to have sex with someone they have no real connection with even though “married”) tThis is pure abandonment and 2 Corinthians 7:15, gives you grounds. He has already left you even if you are in same house. Don’t be deceived.
Hi, Joanne: Just came across this dialogue when reading over Dr. Kathy’s recent email. Oh my, can I identify with your words. Have been married 31 yrs to my Aspie and only realized 10 yrs ago that he is definitely on the autism spectrum. He is officially undiagnosed but most definitley fits ‘all’ the patterns and traits. It has explained SO MUCH in my married life and reading Dr Kathy’s blogs has reinforced everything. Since we are both retired now and together 24/7 things have gotten even worse. I am so LONELY with no meaningful conversation, never looks directly at me when talking, totally ignores me if a statement is not to his liking, refuses to socialize with anyone, if not family. When my adult daughter unexpectedly passed away there was NO sympathy, no emotional support from him whatsoever. With my major surgeries, no effort to go the extra mile to support me, provide for me. No effort to lift a finger in helping me with most anything. When asked if I had to have another surgery and I was unable to prepare a meal or ‘serve him’ as usual, would he be able to ‘do the same for me’. His answer was “we’ll cross that bridge if we come to it”. I’ve lost touch with ‘who I used to be’, what I used to enjoy, as all I do now is structure my life around ‘his’ wants and needs as I am his caregiver and only a roommate. If only I had realized all this even 20 yrs ago . . . . .
I was doing some autism research today and stumbled across your blog post. I found your insight on empathy quite interesting, but at the same time, I very much disagree with your statements.
I agree with your comment regarding the Empathy Triad; we aspies do not meet the requirements of The Empathy Triad’s definition of cognitive empathy. What frustrates me is that you use an 8-year-old outdated definition of empathy and ignore the dozens of research papers published on autistic individuals regarding empathy in recent years. The majority of scholars have concluded that aspies can, in fact, experience empathy. It is a proven fact that children and adults with Asperger’s can experience cognitive empathy to a certain degree. At least the modernized definition of cognitive empathy. It is also proven that aspies can experience emotional empathy (The Empathy Triad’s definition of emotional empathy) on a certain level. So when you make statements like “they don’t anticipate our feelings, nor recognize our feelings, nor apologize for their conduct.” you are effectively generalizing and stereotyping an entire community while basing your opinion on outdated research.
In your blogs, you treat aspies like broken individuals that need to change their ways and do better. You act like we aspies are just not trying hard enough or that we don’t care enough to try, when in fact we do care, we just don’t know how to express ourselves. Just because we cannot read between the lines at times and struggle to understand others’ emotions does not mean that we cannot care about our loved ones. You group affective empathy and cognitive empathy into one definition when in reality, they are very separate.
I fully understand why you get so many angry messages from aspies. After reading your blogs, I feel insulted; it’s like you are trying to make us sound like we don’t have feelings and that we are these cynical beings that only care about ourselves. Almost all of your blogs I read have the same underlying message; aspies aren’t normal; they are damaged individuals that need to be fixed. Even if they are doing the best they can to cope with everything, it’s not enough because they are not normal.
While writing this, I realize that I have gone off on quite a tangent. I sincerely hope you will not perceive any of my comments as personal insults, as that is not my intention. I rarely ever do things like this, but when I started reading your blogs, it genuinely upset and frustrated me. I am aware that you have a right to your own opinion, but when you are an industry professional, I feel it is necessary to inform your audience that some of your views, such as your perspective on empathy, are highly controversial. At least show the reader both sides of the coin, especially if several industry professionals have debunked your view on empathy.
Thank you Neil for your thoughtful comments. I do think differently about empathy. For me Empathy with a capital E means integration of emotional and cognitive aspects of empathy. The very definition of Autism Spectrum Disorder is the disconnect between cognitive and emotional empathy. So while it can be said that Autists have “some” empathy, it certainly seems to be lacking the robustness of cognitive and emotional aspects of empathy, weaving together to make meaning. I maintain that if the Neuro-Diverse individual and the Neuro-Typical individual recognize this disconnect and/or lag time in connecting up cognitive and emotional aspects, there would be more kindness and understanding. However, it’s just not a strong argument to say that one aspect of empathy represents the whole package, or what I call the Empathy Triad.
Thank you very much for your response, it really helped me understand your point of view regarding this topic. I’ve realized that I might just have some very strong opinions regarding Asperger’s. Regardless, I really appreciate you taking the time out of your day to help me further understand this complex topic.
🙂
Hey Kathy,
Are you familiar with the Double Empathy problem?
Thank you Duncan. “The Double Empathy Problem” is a theory that acknowledges that two people such as a Neuro-Diverse and Neuro-Typical couple may both be unable to empathize with the other, due to their differing experiences and view of the world. While this makes sense, it is very limited and not too useful in bridging the “Double Empathy Problem” gap. I am finishing a book on the topic of “Empathy is More Than Words” to address the details more specifically. For example, reciprocity in communication is extremely difficult when ND individuals are transactional and listening to the words, while NTs are interactional and listening to the person.So even if it is true that Autists are judged according to NT standards, the bottom line is that their processing is transactional and tends to shut down communication even with other NDs.
Neil, I am an NT female married to an ASD male and I completely agree with you. I think part of the problem is the hegemony of normalcy. Those on the spectrum are not broken, they merely think differently from NT’s. It is the responsibility of BOTH parties to find and apply a “communication interface” (Gottman is great for this) to avoid assumptions and bad feelings, but because those on the spectrum are in the minority and are often misunderstood they are the ones usually seen as the problem by most NT’s. My husband may not be able to read my face and intuitively know I’m upset, but once I tell him I’m upset and why, he’s perfectly capable of feeling compassion and remorse (if he’s actually done something to hurt me, sometimes I’ve just had a bad day at work) and work to repair the hurt or comfort me. In the beginning did he intuitively know how to comfort me? No, because that’s not how his brain works. Is he willing to give me a tight hug and make me a cup of tea because that’s what comforts me? Of course!! Now he’s learned that tears usually mean upset and says something along the lines of “you look upset, did I do or say anything to hurt you? Would you like a hug or a cup of tea?” If I were to wait around expecting him to read my mind like another NT could I’d still be waiting. It doesn’t mean he’s a jerk, it doesn’t mean he’s broken, it doesn’t mean he’s incapable of love (which someone else posted above), it means I have to be a clear communicator about my feelings (hurt) and needs (hug and tea) and he has to want to meet them, which he does. It frustrates me when an NT expects the impossible from an ASD and then blames them for not being able to follow through. It’s like complaining that a blind husband never tells his wife she’s beautiful.
Standard aspie missing the point take . Not actually understanding the non aspie which is of course what this site is all about
The problem is the upset that you do not see you cause (inadvertently) do not understand and fail to acknowledge it .
How does this feel do you think in a marriage ? Not seen not heard – invisible needs . It feels totally insulting and unsurvivable ultimately. I say this married to a man i have loved all my life who can’t say he loves me and never has been able to . It’s not ok – don’t get married don’t mess up others then say i can’t see it so it’s an invalid feeling . Stop invalidating NT me . Stop saying my feelings are less than an Aspie / stop ignoring that you don’t see things therefore it is not how NTs feel.Aspie feelings are all Aspie cares about and it is evidenced time and time and time again and even here . If you cannot get it what does that suggest – yes you are missing something very much so some integral part is a void . It has an impact .
See the point being made stop justifying your position . Please think about how we all matter all our feelings are legitimate as are our points of view as Non Aspies often living ( somehow ) with Aspies. who we often very much love at our emotional cost .
I obviously came to this post late. If anyone is still reading this I have been married for 30 years to an Aspie and our son is also an Aspie. They were recently diagnosed. I have dealt with what I perceive as their lack of empathy by accepting that they do not have it just as I do not have their unique abilities that are a result of their Aspie brains.
This of course has not yet taken my sadness away about not being able to be emotionally close to my husband. He thinks that we are close because he does not understand NT emotional intimacy. In time, I think this sadness will ebb through accepting him as he is and continuing to get emotional support from my friends and sister .
By accepting his inability to be empathetic, I am no longer hurt by what I used to think was his deliberate callousness and cruelty.
I am lucky in that my husband and I agreed when we got married that we would not call each other names or insult one another even when we are angry. We both have kept this agreement . It has been hard for both of us to do at times, but it has kept us from inflicting hurt on the other out of our frustration and anger with one another.
My biggest challenge right now is that I have to figure out how to manage the stress of living with my husband and son. They went on vacation over the summer for a week and I stayed home. While they were gone, the house was so peaceful and the physical conditions that I have improved. Stress causes them to flair. A friend who is living with us also felt the peace and lack of stress.
Yes, you are right Dr Kathy- my ASD actually walks away if I point out any issue that might require some reciprocity or repair. He has learned to say ‘Sorry’ because I have insisted he cannot continue to live in this relationship unless he makes an effort to repair, but it is always perfunctory and unemotional in its delivery.
For me, putting myself first equal, meeting my own needs and practising self compassion has helped enormously to keep me stable but it has been a long slow ‘journey’ to wellness. Very hard earned.
Hello, thank you to everyone here for your heartfelt contribution. Thank you Dr Kathy, for sending me these posts. I look forward to participating in a group conversation some time.
My world has not gotten any better since I discovered my spouses condition in March of this year. I have learned so much and I know I need the tools provided by dedicated therapists and researchers to help me navigate a relationship that despite my efforts, may be beyond repair. Imagine the effort required. I am a receptive and discerning reader but I have limitations like everyone else. My will gets stomped on in the most obtuse ways. I am sure others can relate.
None of this is, consciously, recognized by her. The deficits are quite simple in construct (so much work has been done for us in the research of this condition)and yet they override every aspect of thought, action and “conversation”. The NT/ND line in the sand. Zero responsibility. I have introduced the dilemma but there is no reciprocating at all as usual, except to admit a few months ago that she knew she was different. Hmmm. Any attempt to talk is shut down just like everything else that has never been discussed, ever ! Typical of the condition. I am getting better at recognizing the constants throughout the variety of modes, so to speak. I am relieved somewhat as I don’t get played regularly any more. They always have a few big bombs hidden away that defy reason. It has been a scary and volatile ride. Our financial situation deteriorated due to my inability to manage ongoing trauma. The constant meltdowns due to her inability to feel stable at all, in our temporary residence, with her mothers similar if not identical condition, finally opened my eyes.
I reside in a transactional state when with her nowadays. Hapa-aspie, I behave in ways that reflect my trauma. Ironic. It is depressing and not good for me yet I accept at this time I can not remove myself entirely and in a way, I think she knows she owes me a little for destroying me inside. Not that she “shows” remorse. She feels something but it is laced with all the wrong lessons she took stock in and believed in without knowing any better. In that way she is just like me. A human being with emotions and very real values in conflict with a chaotic life. I admire her tenacity. I love her. I wish with all my heart and the love of god for her to be well and content. She was abused by this device since her birth and tears fall from my face as I write of it.
Sorry is few and far between if at all. Whether she knows or not, the burden of responsibility I carry for us is a constant crushing force that is killing me. It has broken my heart(I know what love is) and is ruining my health. I am Pre Diabetic now, wow, from living under the regime of her and her undiagnosed 80 yr old mother at her mothers place for nearly a year. I am outnumbered and outgunned by the destructive apathy. Poor diet and ungoverned eating times exacerbates this condition and alternately when some fluke of intervention from a responsible party(myself) succeeds with providing them with their dietary requirements for a few days they are more stable. As they take no responsibility for their actions, if they are not around a stable NT the quality of life deteriorates in numerous ways the family never sees for decades. The apathetic viewpoint of the whole family( I am not joking or hyping this) versus the ND individuals measures to hide their faults. It is a total charade to the initiated and too hard for me to stomach anymore. Family events are very harming to me now. The more I learn about the condition the more I am horrified by its destructive effects on the family unit as I witness 3 generations of Autism, all undiagnosed. Zero responsibility. A family member who I can’t pin down with a diagnosis is married to another one I have more that surmised is on the spectrum. I did not want to look and there were just too many indicators. They have a potentially undiagnosed child entering adulthood but it is difficult to diagnose because she has been so heavily traumatized by the parents, in my humble opinion, another misdiagnosis may help or hurt but they are incapable of seeing the truth. Around it goes.
I use the word trauma appropriately. Anyone who has experienced ongoing traumatic stress disorder or the likes thereof can see abuse for what it is. Anyone who has woken up to Autism in dramatic fashion after (14) years of not knowing why, as many of us have, are the ones who take “responsibility”.
As we did the whole time before we knew the whole picture. The trauma is rife in this family yet if you were to call out any of the perpetrators, as I have with one, the door slams. That family member got involved in our personal affairs on her behalf and did not think I needed to be informed. Now they know!! But when the family gets together the willful dismissal of my position and the play to keep up appearances while ignoring the elephant in the room is abusive to myself, themselves, their spouses and children by default. Disgusting. Imagine how they will react when I load up and fire this divisive information in defence of myself for the first time. This is coming. I am overtired of this element(her family)in my life and will not be abused with the violence of non communication and avoidance(scapegoating). Truth is incorruptible. Apathy is congruent to evil. Evil events take place in society when apathy takes over. History has proven this over and over.
I am amazed at this widespread deep invisible epidemic. Not surprised though.
How well did we know ourselves before this discovery?
How much do we know ourselves?
I see how confounding this is for all of us to work out. So much effort. Responsibility.
My heart goes out to all of you here and others who are yet to join us. Please spare a prayer or thought for me. Thank you everyone for your hard earned lessons and insight. Thank you again Dr Kathy.
As a NT wife of 22 years I feel I have always had to concede and give my Aspie husband all of the accommodations. I feel like he simply lives in his bubble and absolutely shuts down whenever I have needs or feelings. It is so destructive. We’ve been to so much therapy and he just completely shuts down. I think his rejection sensitive dysphoria is pathologic. I shouldn’t have to give 100% accommodation. He should also have responsibility to learn to accommodate my needs as well. He absolutely just won’t.
I thank all that shared their situation with a person that struggles as an Aspie and a reason for why it’s is difficult or seems impossible to reason or understand their lack of empathy. Is it possible to modify their thinking or them to understand NTs or are the chances slim for aspergers to attempt to understand?
Understanding is one way of knowing. Another is to step into the reality of the other, while holding constant your own. Empathy is the latter. It is possible for the NeuroDiverse to understand the type of world that NeuroTypicals inhabit, if you take the time to take note.
What a truly terrible and inaccurate post. Whilst some ‘aspies’ may lack empathy, not all do. Although it’s clear from the comments above, that your readers seem to have partners lacking empathy. The spectrum is broad and not represented by this kind of black and white distinctions, however.
Hi Frank,
A defining characteristic of anyone on the Autism Spectrum, no matter the level is a lack of empathy. I know it is tough to accept, but it is true. Empathy requires the ability to read between the lines, to understand the nuances of reciprocal interaction. This is simply hard work for those on the Spectrum. However, this doesn’t mean that the NeuroDiverse lack compassion. They also are quite capable of being morally responsible. But the lightening quick empathic process is not one of their strengths. Read more about this by author Simon Baron-Cohen, or one of my books. The goal is not to argue the point about who has empathy or not, but to work with the differences in a NeuroDivergent relationship.
I think your view of autism is clouded by your own personal experiences, rather than understanding the diversity of those on the spectrum. Stating a lack of empathy is a defining characteristic is an outdated concept, although perhaps things are more progressive here in the UK. Lacking social understanding is not the same as lacking empathy.
Frank, as an ASD husband to a wonderful NT wife, I am able to see my problem and accept my difficulty in expressing empathy. It took me decades to realize about my issues and I am no longer using ASD as an excuse. I knew I was different and with time I came to accept the limitations imposed on me by this disorder. My lack of understanding of social cues also comes from the fact that I do not know how to express empathy. How useful it can be if I can’t express it? I had to learn how to. I am aware of it now.
I find that I am at a severe disadvantage when dealing with my Asperger daughter (24). I’ve come to learn that mother was ASD, my wife was ASD and I carry “sensitivities” from those relationships. So, when my daughter treats me in a similar manner, without malice, I find it VERY difficult to handle myself maturely. I do my best, but my daughter is totally unforgiving of anything but a perfectly mature interaction. And the only way to fix the relationship is if I accept total responsibility for the current state of disease in the relationship. She has no empathy or awareness of what it is like being in a relationship with her. It’s HARD.
PS when I say act maturely I mean that I might directly challenge her about something rather than take a circuitous route.
Many NTs have to live with the burden of never being forgiven for being human.
What a terrible assertion to an entire group of the population. This advice basically reinforces destructive behaviors against Neurodivergent population and is very misguided to make Neurotypicals feel better and in the right at the expense of those who need their support. Working with Nuerodivergents for over 30 years, I understand there is a double empathy problem, where empathy is expressed differently., but it is NOT a lack of empathy. To make a statement like this is hurtful to relationships, to ND people, and to NT people in unexpected ways. Very poor advice
Thank you Riley, for your observation. I know it is tough to see the NeuroTypical or NeuroDiverse point of view regarding empathy, when you only look at one side of things. In my work, I try to bridge that gap with the 7-Step Interface Protocol (which you can learn about in my online courses, and my book “Empathy is More Than Words”).
Empathy is not empathy unless it is shared. True Empathy is the ability to be sensitive to the emotions and intentions of the other person, and to read the contextual cues for the priorities of the other person, and to have a conversation about those priorities — while at the same time being aware of your own emotions, intentions, context, and convey all in the conversation — and keep it all going by connecting and reconnecting with the other person. That’s why I call it Empathy Triad Sensitivity.
The problem as you well know since you say that you have worked with “Neurodivergents for over 30 years,” is that those with ASD lack this reciprocity in conversation. They have context blindness, so adjusting to the flow of conversation using the Empathy Triad, is extremely difficult for them. There are a number of reasons for this, including Alexithymia. As a result of this deficiency, the NeuroDiverse use other mechanisms to compensate: such as saying nothing, pausing until the words make sense to them, debating, leaving the scene, masking and so forth.
While it is true that most NeuroDiverse folks certainly have emotions, and may be sensitive, compassionate, and thoughtful — this lack of empathy, or Empathy Dysfunction (EmD) means that conversations with others (NeuroTypicals and NeuroDiverse) often get confusing and even hostile. I refer to this as “Worlds Colliding.”
I agree with your implied presumption that this is a terrible state of affairs in that both NTs and the NeuroDiverse do not understand the mind of the other. But I wholeheartedly disagree that it is harmful to the NeuroDiverse to deprive them of this knowledge about themselves by implying that they have empathy, when they do not. Rather the solution is to help them recognize their EmD so that they can work with it. If you need glasses, get a prescription. If you need hearing aids, get hearing aids. If you have ADHD or diabetes, work with a specialist to find the correct treatment for the disorder. ASD is a developmental disorder with disastrous consequences for most on the Spectrum. They need professional treatment.
The NeuroDiversity Movement is political, not a therapeutic approach. The goal of this movement is to recognize the value of those with ASD and treat them with respect. However, this goal is usurped if you advise the NeuroDiverse that they have empathy. I consider it disrespectul not to help them with an obvious disability. If you are a therapist, you can update your skills in this area by taking one of my online courses.
On the micro level, related to this particular blog post, on why the NeuroDiverse struggle to take responsibility for their actions, is related to their EmD. First, it is difficult for them to recognize how their actions affect the other person, since they are not considering the elements of the Empathy Triad. Secondly, if their intentions are good, or valid in their own minds, then their actions are too — again without consideration for how those actions affect others. Third, an apology for the sake of resolving the other’s hurt or angry feelings, seems irrelevant to those with ASD, since they see explaining how they are right or meant well, as more important than reconnecting the trust with the other person.
NTs make the mistake of assuming that their NeuroDiverse loved one has Empathy Triad Sensitivity. They are often shocked that their ASD partner starts anaylyzing the dialogue instead of emotionally affirming the NT first. The NT keeps trying to reconnect emotionally, while the NeuroDiverse person keeps trying to debate the facts. Usually this erupts into a terrible disagreement. This is why I call these relationships NeuroDivergent — emphasizing the Divergent or pulling apart element.
I teach my NeuroDivergent couples many ways to resolve these conflicts by learning more about the Empathy Triad, Empathy Dysfunction, Radiant Empathy, and the 7-Step Interface Protocol. All of which you can learn more about in my books and courses.
One very powerful technique for the NT is to respectfully recognize the attempts on the part of the NeuroDiverse to track the Context of their conversation. The ASD person often picks out those elements in the Context that they can relate to — not necessarily what the NT is talking about. Instead of telling the NeuroDiverse to “look me in the eye,” or “listen to me,” the NT needs to acknowledge the comment but steer their partner back to the conversation. For example, the NT may say, “Yes that’s true, but I was referring to this . . .” It takes longer to have this type of conversation since the NeuroDiverse do not have lightening speed Empathy Triad Sensitivity. But if the NeuroDiverse person is on board with their diagnosis — and they realize that they need more time to process what is being said — and they are willing to be guided by their NT — and they have developed some new skills to take the time to process — then the couple can get to a warm hearted solution.
So no Riley, the NeuroDiverse do not have empathy and they struggle with lots of things in life as a result. It is my professional opinion that we do them a great disservice to tell them they have empathy and that NeuroTypicals are just being mean. But we can help by elucidating the truth and clearing up one of the greatest mysteries of their lives.
I don’t see how your comment is helpful. Being neurodivergent is not a pass to be abusive, and neurodivergent or not, we are all accountable for how we treat others.
Some NeuroDiverse folks and even a few mental health professionals do not understand this concept. Years ago Thomas Szaz published a little book entitled “The Myth of Mental Illness,” in which he argues that even mentally ill people are aware enough to be held accountable for their actions. Granted, there should be some mercy applied, but the gist is what another author Bill W. also advocated. The AA philosophy is that alcohoilcs are not responsible for their illness BUT they ar still held accountable for their actions. I believe this is true for Autists too.
Think about it. Belief in our ability to change is vital. We may have autism or diabetes or bipolar disorder or a head injury — but if we hold ourselves to the standard that we are helpless victims who should not be held accountable for our actions — then there is no hope.
Be gracious to the idiosyncrasies of others certainly. Accepting disrespect or abuse, or even mildly rude behavior from an Autist, just because they are disabled, is not OK.
You’re so right about that! It’s a two-way street and both sides are misunderstanding one another, albeit for different reasons. Ironically, the NTs part is in that they make assumptions and intuit falsehoods upon the autistic person, while the autistic person is simply unaware of the thoughts of the NT (which is bound to cause confusion to a person who has “caught” the NTs emotional state but confronted with a mask being worn to conceal the caught emotion).
Riley, I think Dr. Marshack is trying to help people understand about the empathy problem we on the spectrum have when interacting with NTs. Being a late diagnosed ASD, I wish I could have learned how to be empathetic when I was young. I didn’t have the support from my parents. Even having some form of empathy, I was unable to express it so how useful it was for me to feel something I can’t communicate to others? It’s basically like not having it and I am old enough to admit it.
It’s comforting to see so many NT partners with similar experiences to my own. I’m only 30 and my autistic fiancé’s 25. She was diagnosed as a child and received some assistance growing up, not enough because of coming from a low income household, but much more than older generations. Our issues are not as severe as many couples here. It breaks my heart to hear many of your stories, and it worries me about my future marriage as well as possible future children. My fiancée truly tries her best and it sounds like she’s much more aware and accommodating than most peoples partners here. However, it’s still a very lonely existence. I’m this persons caretaker overall. I’m strapped financially because I’m tending to someone that can’t even handle a part time job and feels working 12 hours a week is more than she should have to work. I get home from working 12 hour days 5 days a week to support us and she stays on the computer the entire time engrossed in her special interests. Then I go to sleep alone and she goes to sleep when I wake up. I’m completely cut off from family and friends because I work so much to support us and because I can’t leave her alone for too long because she won’t even take basic care of herself such as preparing food for herself. To make things worse my job is a supervising position where I supervise an old autistic man who might be one of the most insufferable people I’ve ever encountered. To make it worse this guy spends his time complaining about his wife who takes care of him all day long to me. He has abandoned her and his kids several times(blames it on his wife yelling at him once), and actively tries to cheat on her. So my only two in person interactions I have on a daily basis is that man and my partner. It is basically living in a world where you’re never heard but constantly forced to listen.
I love my fiancée so much but I deal with major depression and I have to tuck my own mental health away constantly in order to be there for her. None of my needs are met because there’s no empathy for me, I’m alone. I have to ask for comfort, I have to cry for her to get the point and I’m not one to cry. Yesterday I had my first manic episode in years and as I’m explaining how I’m afraid to drive in that moment and how I am coming apart she insists I drive her to get her friend a gift then leaves me as I’m breaking down to go to a party. I feel like I’m rambling/complaining and I hate it I just don’t know what to do anymore. I love my fiancée so much but all she requires prevents me from loving myself. And unlike a lot of partners here she tells me she’s grateful for me and she does realize a lot of what I do for her. But that doesn’t lead to her taking any responsibility for herself. I don’t want to leave her and I love her too much to because I know she would probably end up homeless or something because she has no family support.
To empathize is to step into another’s world, seeing with their eyes, feeling with their heart, and understanding with an open mind. Reliable Home Care for Seniors
I do agree with the empathy portion but my high functioning autistic partner does not take responsibility for things he does to himself either. So im not sure empathy completely explains this away. There’s some kind of disconnect going on where my partner feels things are too difficult so he is not to blame or someone has a stronger will and is manipulative so he’s not to blame for his part. For example, he eats horrible sometimes and says he has trouble making food yet, if I offer to make something healthy he will sometimes say he doesn’t like it, or I’ve heard it’s a texture thing many times. Point is he is choosing the unhealthy option over the healthy option and then claiming he has no control over his choice. It makes me feel like I’m speaking to a completely insane person at times. Whether you like healthy food or not you have a choice what you choose to eat. Sometimes I wonder if he thinks someone else is living his life. I’m just really struggling to understand what is going through his thoughts.
Autistic people don’t lack EMPATHY, they are DEFICIENT IN ”COGNITIVE EMPATHY.” Cognitive empathy is what this article focused upon.”Effectual/Emotional Empathy” is oftentimes HEIGHTENED in autistic people. Emotional, or affective empathy, is the kind you “catch” from others, as if it was your own. This empathy is the type that makes you cry when you see someone crying, why people cry at a sad movie, or why you feel terrible when you see somebody suffering. The type of empathy this article stresses is cognitive, it is the empathy that allows you to “walk in another’s shoes, to figure out how they would feel about something you said or did. Autistic people can’t figure out what’s going on in your head. To them, you are an enigma in which any possibility is probable and they could never guess correctly if they tried.
Additionally, the empathy problem isn’t one-sided, it’s actually a “DOUBLE-EMPATHY PROBLEM” which both autistic and neurotypical both play a role. Neurotypical people usually don’t intuit autistic people correctly. Just as the autistic person cannot understand the neurotypical person, the neurotypical person cannot understand the autistic person. This is the source of the problem of miscommunication.
Hi Natalie, I have addressed this confusion many times. Simon Baron-Cohen says it well in his book “The Science of Evil.” He says that those with ASD have “Zero Degrees of Empathy,” precisely because they cannot juggle all of the pieces of empathy. The Empathy Triad consists of Empathy, Context, and Conversation. Without the ability to smoothly transition between cognitive and emotional awareness, empathy is deficient. It is really no help to the NeuroDiverse to tell them they do indeed have empathy when they don’t have all of the pieces working together. As kind or sensitive or compassionate or logical as they might be, empathy is the integration of vital parts.
It’s just as harmful to say they don’t have empathy as it is to say they have it. If they lack components, fine. Say that. To say they are incapable of it causes great harm. Read the comments on this blog post. These people are talking about Aspies as if they are soulless husks who are incapable of feeling love, empathy, or being good and faithful.
As an Aspie who feels those things and hasn’t cheated, who also writes romance (so I better have a great understanding of these things to be successful), I take offense to the harmful method of framing it as all or nothing/black or white.
Please do better.
I am so sorry that these comments are upsetting. It is tough to talk about Empathy Dysfunction in Autism without it sounding blaming and negative. However, if we don’t get to the bottom of the interpersonal communication problems that abound in NeuroDivergent relationships, our dearest relationships founder. I try to write about these problems with compassion.
For the NTs reading these comments, it is a relief to know that they are not alone. The emotional impact of life with a partner with ASD is often confusing, painful, and even physically debilitating. It is no wonder many NTs are disillusioned and angry — and yes often accusatory. However, I’d like you to consider that the reason for these behaviors may not be a lack of genuine concern and love, but more about fatigue. If those with ASD could understand that your “operating system” contributes to these problems it would help. It’s not your fault, but it is not very helpful to resolve these problems by asking the NT to “be nice” or to take full responsibility for the breakdown.
I offer books, podcasts, blogs, Facebook Lives, and online courses to take a deep dive into these problems. If both NeuroDiverse and NeuroTypical come to understand the other person’s “operating system” and follow my 7-Step Interface Protocol, we can be there for each other. But ignoring the problem, or blaming, or acting as if all is well in my world alone — this does not work.
Natalie, as a late diagnosed ASD I have to agree with Dr. Marshack. I didn’t have all the necessary support to learn about empathy when I was younger, much less how to express it. I knew I was missing something and only later in life I learn about it. My NT wife and friends helped me so much to realize about it after years of frustrations with other people and even losing multiple jobs. Normalizing this condition didn’t help me navigate this world. I am humble enough to admit I can be better instead of expecting everyone to accommodate my deficiencies like my father did. Not being able to grasp the whole meaning of empathy, and more importantly how to express it, caused me a lot of troubles. If you are unable to express it, then it becomes useless if only I can feel it.
My favorite thing about this post is that it was not written by someone on the spectrum. How can you know what they are thinking, feeling, or experiencing? What we actually have is a “double empathy problem” where you can’t seem to empathize with people who have ASD (or really seem to see them as people. You seem to see these family members as a problem). Conversely, yes, we also can’t really understand you. But instead of working together, neurotypical people will spend their whole lives telling us what is wrong with us – never considering that communication is a two-way street in ANY relationship.
I’d love to check back in a few years to hear how your neurotypical expectations cause them trauma…
Excellent comment Marissa. I have often heard the collision of operating systems described as a double empathy problem, but of course this is inaccurate. Empathy is far more than listening and understanding, as I have described in my of my books, blogs and podcasts. But you are very close to comprehending the problem NTs have with the NeuroDiverse. By using their empathy skills with the NeuroDiverse, who have zero degrees of empathy (as described by Simon Baron-Cohen too), NTs keep getting stumped. The NT expects a reciprocal conversation, but instead gets a transactional one. As a result they try harder to get an NT type of connection and get frustrated over and over again. And as you point out that frustration can erupt into tears and angry accusations, as if the NeuroDiverse person is deliberately thwarting them. This problem is the reason I have proposed the 7-Step Interface Protocol to resolve the collision of worlds of the NeuroDivergent relationship. But to your point of recognizing the pain and suffering caused the NeuroDiverse, I would frame it differently. It is pointless and counter productive for NTs to demand that their ASD loved ones respond empathically. ASD is a developmental disorder characterized by many symptoms but especially confounding to relationships because of Empathy Dysfunction. Once the NeuroTypical and the NeuroDiverse recognize this dilemma, they can work around it. Where there is a will (and love) there is a way.
Just as I posted my first reply to Marissa, I got a message from an NT who is grateful for the help she is getting from my materials and our group. She said, “. . . I am learning so much in this community, but unfortunately my husband will not even consider the thought of (potentially) having quite a few neurodiverse traits. I have tried to make him aware of his different communication style and way of thinking, but he won’t engage at all. I am considering signing up to the entry-level course by myself, but he won’t join me. My hope is that I will learn enough to at least improve our relationship in the short term, and then maybe (once he realises that my strategies are (hopefully) working well because I am approaching him as a neurodiverse person) he may want to look into this. Fingers crossed.” Yes, Marissa it takes two.
Marissa, that’s NOT true. My NT wife has helped me to see why I was not able to meet her needs and I helped her to see why I behave the way I did. She is the most patient and compassionate person I have ever met and without her I don’t know if I would be still around. Even before meeting her I knew I was different, that there was something wrong with me. Now I am brave enough to admit it instead of keep using it as an excuse to hold me back in life. I am tired of people telling me that being an ASD is like having a superpower, it is NOT. This condition has caused me a lot of troubles and I wish I knew better when I was growing up.
Rob!! There ís Nothing Wrong with you!!! Bless you for trying to understand the other side. I wish, and I’m sure many of us NT wives wish our spouses would see things like you do!!!
I will let Rob speak to this if he sees your message, and I am sure he will appreciate your kindness. However, it might help to understand what he means by “wrong,” that is different than most NTs might assume. It’s like the word “sin.” Most of us experience that word as meaning bad or wrong or even evil. To have sinned is a terrible disgrace and we have to ask God for forgiveness and even seek penance. But another interpretation of the ancient origin of the word sin is to “miss the mark.” When Rob describes his actions as wrong he is aware that he missed the mark, not that he is a bad person. When you tell him that “there is noting Wrong with you,” that misses the mark too. Of course you are offering him the perspective that you appreciate how open and willing he is to change, and that is a wonderful quality — but you miss his sincere effort to acknowlege that he missed the mark for years and feels badly about that. These are the types of fine distinctions that cause communication problems in our NeuroDivergent relationships. Both people meaning well and both people missing the mark.
(English is not my first language).
Please, could you write about the complete abandonment of the couple’s parents and in-laws after the diagnosis? I am NT and have been married for a few years and my husband started showing signs of Asperger’s on our honeymoon. When our parents and siblings found out, we were completely abandoned. We no longer see them, they don’t even call or respond to our contacts.
Social isolation is a common phenomenon for NeuroDivergent couples. There are lots of reasons for this, but the one you are experiencing is so demoralizing. I would even call it abusive. Extended family (as well as friends) sometimes avoid NeuroDivergent couples because of their discomfort. They may feel the same distress that you do with the relating and communicating snags that occur in NeuroDivergent relationships. Instead of “leaning into” the diagnosis they hide, avoid and blame. This primitive reaction is a common human trait if you think about it, not just where there is autism in a family. However, my goal is to shine a light on these complex and painful relationships so that we can heal and find healthier ways to relate.
I’m new to your blog. My wife found this post while searching the web for additional answers and thought it might be useful for me. It has been. I am also about halfway through my first reading of your book “Empathy is More Than Words.” I find the concept of your Empathy Triad intriguing. I’ve never come across it before in all my research, beyond the traditional definition of the three types of empathy:
There should be a picture here of the three types of empathy: Cognitive, Emotional, and Empathetic Concern, but it didn’t come through.
Which is confusing to me as I’ve tried to improve my capabilities in each area, without much success. Your model, however, resonated immediately:
There should be a picture here of your Empathy Triad: Empathy, Context, and Conversation, but it didn’t come through.
With the traditional model when I fall out of one of the empathy types, I’m left flopping around like a fish on dry land. With your model, however, when I fall out of the Empathy Circle, which I will, I find myself in the Context Circle. Context is something I can work with.
I can think about context, I can write about context, and I can talk about context. Context is something that makes sense to my brain.
In your book, you talk about the Context Matrix:
Context is everything we are surrounded by in life. In a relationship, the
Context is framed by you and the other person(s).
Context includes:
• words chosen and how they are spoken—their inflection, tone, and pace;
• environment—the setting
○ office, kitchen, bedroom;
○ room decorations;
○ sounds from inside or outside the room;
○ time of day (i.e., are you hungry and/or tired?);
○ presence of others;
• rules, laws, and cultural norms.
Context is much more than a collection of cues. Context is a matrix of
related and interconnected cues.
In the case of my wife and myself, context also includes our history, particularly for my wife.
If we start a conversation about why I reset the thermostat after she already did so, implying she is too stupid to do it right, then she switches to something that happened 10 years ago. She goes around in these circles so much I get lost as to where we started and what we’re talking about.
Understanding that my wife’s Context includes our history I can now see she is not talking in circles. She is talking about the way my singular actions have hurt her over the years, and how the accumulation of those actions, without change in my behavior, has grown into her questioning my love for her.
My Context
There is a simple set of facts supported by a history of behaviors, actions and words. The facts are these:
a. I am in a state of constant and perpetual overwhelm.
b. When I talk, I make it worse. When I don’t talk, I make it worse.
c. Everything we are going through and everything you feel is the result of living with an undiagnosed autistic husband for the last 55 years. It is all my fault.
d. I have never been able to make you feel loved, understood, or cared for.
Your Context
You are in emotional pain, all the time. It never stops. Not all of your pain comes from me. Some were established in your childhood before we met. But, it’s all connected, and I am the majority contributor to that pain. The pain will never go away, no matter what. You feel sad, lonely, alone, unloved, worthless, ugly, and tired of it all with no hope left. Now, all you want is peace, comfort, and stability. And you have never gotten those from anyone in your life. Not from your family, or your children, or your friends, or me. But still, you try. Still, you love.
By writing our general Context’s down, they become real.
Here’s another point. As you can see we have been married for 55 years. We’ve known each other for 60 years. I was only diagnosed with ASD 3 years ago when I started individual therapy. My wife looks at all the people out there talking about how hard it has been to live with an undiagnosed autistic for 20 or 25 years and says: “What do they know? No one is in our situation. No one talks about how to heal from twice the suffering and pain. No one talks about living with CS and AfDD for longer than their marriages lasted.”
There are names for the condition in the spouse that results in living long-term with an undiagnosed ADS spouse. They are as follows:
1997: Mirror Syndrome used to describe the NT experience
1999: Mirror Syndrome changed to Cassandra Syndrome (CS)
1999: Cassandra Syndrome (CS) changed to Cassandra Affective Disorder (CAD)
2005: Cassandra Affective Disorder (CAD) changed to Cassandra Affective Deprivation Disorder (CADD)
2007: Cassandra Affective Deprivation Disorder (CADD) changed to Affective Deprivation Disorder (AfDD)
2010: Affective Deprivation Disorder (AfDD) changed to Ongoing Traumatic Relationship Syndrome (OTRS)
It seems to me that a lot of the people you talk to, and aim your books towards may fall into this category. However, I have yet to see you address this. But, as I said, I’m new to your blog and books. Maybe you talk about it in other places.
Oh yes, just one more little picky thing. It looks like you always put the word Aspie in quotes: “Aspie”. Why is that? It struck me as just a little passive-aggressive. Can you explain?
Thank you for giving me a new concept to add to my tool kit of workarounds.
Wonderful summary. Thank you. If you don’t mind I will include some of your comments in my podcast. I’ll write more later.
One more thing. If you read my blog on Hans Asperger, you will better understand why I italicize and put “Aspie”;in quotes.
I’ve just started going through the 191 posts. Can you tell me the number for the one on Hans? And, yes, if you think it will help someone else, please use anything. Could you let me know if and when it is used so I can listen? I have yet to discover your pods.
Good morning Richard. In order to find the blog on Hans Asperger, type the name into the search box on this website. As to finding my podcast, and YouTube, there are links under resources on this website. Or you can Google Kathy Marshack podcast. Hope this helps. By the way thank you for your kind comments. I hope this journey takes you back to your wife and a happier relationship.
Revised from 8:01 AM Post.
I’ve read a number of negative comments within this blog, and everyone has the right to their opinion. For me, however, this is one of the good ones. The ideas and concepts contained here have given me the power to move just a little bit forward in my battle to understand my relationship with my NT wife. And for that, I will be forever grateful.
I don’t read blogs, or books, or listen to videos to review how anti-ASD they might be. And there are a lot of them out there that do nothing but harm.
I do my research on all of them, good and bad, so I can find just one single nugget that makes sense to my brain, so I can add it to my toolbox of empathy workarounds, so I can become a better husband to my wife, and a better person in general. In fact, I have found some of my most useful tools in the most anti-ASD sites.
I am 75 years old and don’t have the time to nitpick. I don’t have the time to be a crusader for the cause. I have too much work left to do on my marriage. If I accept the I am EmD-0, and I do, I accept that I can stop working in a fruitless area, empathy, and start working in an area where I can make progress. And this site I have found several nuggets that work for me, and I hope others will too. This site is well worth the effort.
While researching Empathy for my posts on this site, I came across a quote that I feel is appropriate for me as an EmD-0 Aspie. It may also be appropriate for other Aspies as well:
“The best definition of empathy I’ve ever heard is this: The ability to communicate that incredible healing message of “you’re not alone.” I can’t say I know how you feel, because I don’t necessarily, but I can say “You’re not alone.” You know what it means to send somebody a message, a message in all caps. You’re sending an attitude, you’re sending a tone. What empathy is, it is sending a feeling, a healing feeling that you’re not alone.”
-Gregory Dickow, Pastor
If I can give my wife the feeling that she is not alone because of what I have learned from this site, I will consider it a godsend forever.
This is not accurate. People with autism have empathy. You’re describing communication issues. Some people with autism lack empathy but usually do to underlying personality disorders (yes, they happen). Autistic communication is direct and assertive, without emotional filtering. Empathy is expressed differently with autistic people. Autistic people communicate fine with other autistic people. This problem only arises when autistic people try to communicate with neurotypical people blaming autistic people for something they are not doing, isn’t helpful at all.
Empathy is more than words and that is where the rub is. Good intentions do not make empathy. But compassion can go a long way. Understanding that the NeuroDiverse lack empathy, but that they still have heart is a big first step to resolving differences.
Lorie, I have to disagree with you. I used to have autistic friends and the communication was only about only common interests, to the point and as Dr says, transactional. Some of them were on the severe side of the spectrum and it was hard to maintain an conversation with them. It was “fine” because it was so limited and restricted. I might have empathy when I was younger but I wasn’t able to express it so to others it was non-existent. I was lacking the capability to understand and express it, so it is indeed “lacking”.
My undiagnosed or tested spouse (refuses) makes promise after promise to keep mutual agreements we make and then doesn’t. 18 years of I forgot, “I was in a rage,” I didn’t know, I’m busy…always some excuse. What is good is good and what’s bad is bad. It’s bittersweet to say I’ve had enough. I grew up with chaotic parents who could be loving one minute and volatile and mean the next. This is what I experience. Sprinkled with calm conversation where we both agree to do better and I do my part and he doesn’t. I guess my wiring made me susceptible to trying to be a fixer and helper and I fell in love with the mask that was presented and then eroded. Leaving me confused and asking who am I married to? He always says he doesn’t do things on purpose. But doesn’t seek to correct them either. I was attracted to his ability to not be emotionally affected by life frustrations and solidness and being a cool cucumber. It took a minute (years) to identify he really doesn’t care and the cool cucumber is really detachment and he doesn’t want to be bothered. I feel sad for people on both sides who have put so much effort into a relationship to be left with nothing to show for it. No fair.
Well said but poignant.
This characterization of autistic people as lacking empathy and refusing to take responsibility is both inaccurate and harmful. Empathy, as experienced by autistic individuals, is often different—not absent. Many autistic people feel emotions deeply (affective empathy) but may struggle to interpret subtle cues or predict how someone feels (cognitive empathy). This difference does not mean they don’t care; it means they may need more direct communication to understand and respond appropriately.
To suggest that autistic people don’t take responsibility for their actions or attempt repair is a sweeping generalization that ignores the unique ways they approach relationships. Autistic individuals are often deeply principled and value fairness and honesty, sometimes to a greater extent than neurotypicals. However, they might process conflict differently or need more time to understand how their actions affected someone else.
Statements like this perpetuate harmful stereotypes, painting autistic people as emotionally deficient. Relationships with autistic partners, like any relationship, require mutual understanding and effort. Neurotypicals also need to take responsibility for communicating clearly, rather than expecting autistic individuals to meet unspoken or implied expectations.
Rather than framing autistic behavior as inherently flawed, we should focus on fostering compassion and open dialogue. Misunderstanding isn’t a lack of care—it’s a call for better communication.
Avery, I was not aware that I was irresponsible back when I didn’t know about my ASD. I didn’t know how to have a healthy relationship or even true friends. I was callous and indifferent to so many situations and people (even other ASDs) because I didn’t know better. Not only we need more time to process emotions and adverse situations, we also are not as good as NT when dealing with stress. I can tell you that because of the multiple meltdowns and burnouts I had in life. My NT wife has helped me a lot with this condition and has shown incredible levels of compassion. We (ASDs) are wired different and more often than not we are way too focused on ourselves. Took me a long time to see this. People on the spectrum who really want to improve will seek help and learn to be better and don’t let a disorder define who they are, the rest will remain in their bubble thinking that there’s nothing wrong with them.
Here is my opinion. It’s my belief that many respondents to this blog are misunderstanding Dr. Marshack’s concept of empathy. It’s not the traditional definition but an extension that adds more structure and clarity when understood properly.
In Dr. Kathy Marshack’s book Empathy Is More Than Words, she does not claim that individuals on the autism spectrum (whom she sometimes refers to as “Aspies”) entirely lack empathy. Instead, she distinguishes between different types of empathy and highlights the unique challenges autistic individuals may face when it comes to integrating those types effectively.
Dr. Marshack explores empathy through her concept of the “Empathy Triad,” which includes three elements: empathy, context, and conversation. She argues that many autistic individuals struggle with some aspects of the triad, particularly the cognitive and contextual elements, while they may excel in others, like emotional or affective empathy. Let’s break it down:
What She Likely Emphasizes About Empathy and Aspies:
Cognitive Empathy Deficits:
This is the ability to “step into someone else’s shoes” and understand their perspective or predict their feelings. Dr. Marshack suggests that autistic individuals may have difficulty with this aspect because they often process the world differently and may not naturally pick up on social cues or unspoken norms that inform context.
Emotional Empathy Strengths:
Many autistic individuals are deeply emotionally sensitive and may feel others’ emotions intensely, sometimes to the point of overwhelm. However, they might struggle to express their understanding or respond in a way that aligns with neurotypical expectations.
Contextual Challenges:
Context includes understanding the larger picture of social interactions, including history, environment, and unspoken rules. Dr. Marshack argues that many autistic individuals may find it difficult to integrate context into their empathy processes, which can lead to misunderstandings or communication breakdowns.
Integrating the Triad:
Dr. Marshack emphasizes that empathy involves the seamless integration of emotional, cognitive, and contextual understanding. While she acknowledges that autistic individuals can develop awareness and strategies to improve empathy-related skills, she points out that this integration might remain a challenge due to the way their brains process information.
Does She Say Aspies Have “No Empathy”?
No, Dr. Marshack does not argue that Aspies are entirely devoid of empathy. Instead, she highlights that autistic individuals may struggle with certain aspects of empathy, particularly the cognitive and contextual pieces, while potentially being highly capable of emotional empathy. She also notes that these challenges are not due to a lack of caring or love but are rooted in neurological differences.
Double Empathy Problem:
Though Dr. Marshack doesn’t explicitly frame her work in terms of the “double empathy problem” (a concept introduced by Dr. Damian Milton), it aligns with the idea. This theory suggests that miscommunication and misunderstanding in relationships between autistic and neurotypical individuals are mutual, arising from differences in how each group processes and interprets social and emotional cues.
In Conclusion:
Dr. Marshack’s perspective is nuanced. She acknowledges that autistic individuals often experience and express empathy differently than neurotypical people. She also emphasizes that understanding these differences—and working toward bridging them—is key to fostering healthier, more connected relationships.
As a 75 year old Aspie who has only been diagnosed for 4 years, I’m actually quite pleased, and proud, of the work I’ve been doing with this new concept of Dr. Marshack’s Empathy Triad. It’s given such an improved structure to my Rules, my Work-arounds, and my thinking about my marriage relationship.
I am, however, still having a problem with the concepts of ‘Empathy Triad Blind’ and ‘Empathy Triad Sensitive’. Dr. Marshack has the two categories as mutually exclusive and never shall the Aspie’s of this world gain that sensitivity. I’ve always had a problem with choices that are binary. I feel that there’s always a third option if you’re diligent enough and creative enough to look for it. And Aspie’s are both.
In this case it’s my opinion that there’s a third category. I call it ‘Empathy Triad Engaged’.
Having read and responded to Dr. Marshack’s blog, and having read her book ‘Empathy is More Than Words’, I am aware of the her Empathy Triad. Awareness is the first step. Awareness is also the booby prize. Just because you’re aware of something doesn’t mean it’s of benefit to you. You have to be engaged with it before you can implement it successfully. That’s what I’ve been trying to do ever since I came across this blog, doing additional research, and seeking additional advice.
Again, in my opinion, I believe that I’m ‘Empathy Triad Engaged’. But I still have more work to do.
Before trashing Dr. Marshack’s work, understand her new and expanded concept of the Empathy Triad.
I’m new to this blog but I’ve found it very helpful. I am a NT and although my diagnosed high functioning ASD partner refuses to commit or label us – we’ve been on and off almost every month for the last fifteen years. I guess that is convenient for him as I fulfil all the partner duties and then he can remain at a distance when anything “serious” is required of him. He was diagnosed in his thirties and now we are both in our forties. I’ve been divorced for the last twenty one years, having left an abusive marriage.
I can honestly say that I have tried my very best to appreciate his struggles with life, to be compassionate, to be patient, to remain calm throughout every verbal onslaught, swallow every insult, clearly being gaslit, and make peace with sacrificing any notion I had of wanting a “normal” or reciprocal relationship. But my question is – in NT relationships, abuse, domestic violence (which doesn’t necessarily mean physical violence) and trauma are clearly defined. Red flags are continously talked about on different platforms and people are discouraged from remaining in such toxic and damaging relationships.
Yet all the information I’ve found regarding NT/ND relationships, normalise the meltdowns (which occur with almost every interaction in our case), provide tips for NTs to pacify and calm the ND down and have an underlying message that NTs should make as many accommodations as they possibly can to support the NDs disorder. So when are NTs permitted to call it abuse? I’ve been told by him that everything he says and does is a direct result of his ASD and is never meant the way it was recieved. Does that mean it’s acceptable? Is this a free pass to verbally, mentally and emotionally abuse someone? Why should I be guilt tripped into putting up with this after already having lived a NT abusive marriage? I’m not even sure if I fell in love with the good man I thought he was or the mask that was or is portrayed. Hence I’ve been a glutton for punishment. I’m naturally a very compassionate and gentle person so I always keep searching for the beautiful man I see in small glimpses and rare kind gestures. But deep down, I am grieving the loss of my self respect, continuing to be with someone who has very little respect, empathy or love to show, let alone acknowledge.
I have ended it yet again and I’m praying that this will be the last time. Any words of advice would be grately appreciated. I also apologise if I have offended any NDs. I can only talk of my own experience and I completely accept that not every ND can or should be labelled as abusive.
I think a lot of this goes back to how men and women are raised, autistic or not.
Growing up as a girl, you learn very early on to smile, be pleasant, and take others into account, or you are punished. Even if you are autistic you soon learn to tailor yourself to expectation, because you are STILL expected to smile, be pleasant, and take others into account and if you don’t, you are constantly punished. Every autistic woman goes through ABA, essentially… and I don’t mean the nouveau “nice” ABA, I mean the oldschool “beat them until they comply” ABA.
Meanwhile, “boys will be boys”… even autistic boys, so they grow up to be entitled, arrogant little monsters who think the world revolves around them. Years later, they will only even attempt “repair” when the person they’ve abused for months or years has finally had enough and has announced their intention to leave.
I’m an Aspie husband. I have accepted the E3 model as it provides me a way forward, and I have accepted that I am EmD-0, as it gives me freedom and power. By accepting I am EmD-0, I have the freedom to no longer live up to the expectations of having or showing any empathy traits. By accepting I am EmD-0, I have the power to forgive myself for not being empathic.
Does this mean I’m off the hook? According to my wife:
No, absolutely not.
According to Dr. Marshack:
“An “Aspie’s” Empathy Triad Blindness is unnerving for NTs (and can grow to be devastating…). Just because “Aspies” cannot fathom the Empathy Triad, they don’t get a pass on polite behavior or doing the right thing. If they cannot read between the lines, EmDs can learn the Rules of Engagement, develop some Work-arounds, and give the benefit of the doubt to their NT loved ones.”
I’ve made a few rules for myself about this subject. Here are a couple:
Rule 7: Don’t use autism as an excuse. It’s not an excuse, it’s an explanation of behavior and is to be used as a framework to improve words and actions that will help in the rebuilding of our relationship.
Rule 10: Yes, everything really is Your (the ASD partner) fault. It’s always was and it always will be. And remember, autism is not an excuse.
The bottom line is that abuse is abuse regardless of who perpetrates it. Autism is not an excuse.
If it doesn’t stop now, it will destroy you.
The following are quotes from Sarah Swenson, MA, LMHC in the article titled: “Married with Undiagnosed ASD: Why Women Who Leave Lose Twice”
“A woman in her mid-50s came in for her first appointment. She seemed unsure of herself, eyes downcast, behaving as many women do when they first arrive. I recognized the familiar look of bewilderment, explained by others before her as wondering whether they are going to make sense when they begin to speak, or whether I will view them as whiners, or whether they may be wasting my time.”
“Before taking a seat, she handed me her curriculum vitae. Many pages long, it was heavy in my hand.”
“This is who I used to be,” she said.
“At a glance, I could see that among other things this woman had successfully argued a case in front of the U.S. Supreme Court. Sinking into the chair in my office, however, she appeared too meek to look me in the eye as her tears began to form.”
“I think my husband has Asperger’s. I don’t know, though. Maybe it’s me. Maybe there’s something wrong with me,” she said. “We have been married for 20 years. I don’t mean to say anything bad about him. He’s a good man. But I need a divorce. And my children think I’m a crazy person.”
“… in running from abuse (regardless of the fact it was not necessarily intentional), she is running from a burning building in order to save her life. A fire set by intent, an accidental fire—what’s the difference to the person inside the house who must flee if she wants to live?”
Greetings. What a breath of fresh air. I am an NT and my girlfriend is a recently (months) diagnosed high-functioning Autistic. Since the diagnosis I have been trying to let go of preconceived notions and expectations and humble myself to the idea that my best efforts and loving ideas of fairness, affirmation and conflict resolution might be wrong for my partner. Difficult because it is in direct conflict with my core values of how to take care of loved ones and how I want/need to be taken care of in relationships.
Many of the traits that need to be normalized for our autistic loved ones are actually red flags for me from past painful and even abusive relationships that I swore I wanted to avoid. Like chronic defensiveness, blame shifting, anger and counterattacking as a defensive mechanism. Also misremembering past conflicts, remembering words that I never said or not remembering certain aspects at all. In the past I have always attributed those characteristics to dishonesty, toxic ego, self centeredness, and a moral/ethical problem. I’m sure that most NTs would agree that when exhibited by another neurotypical, those behaviors do indicate potential red flags to put it simply. The worry is that the person might be willing to ignore the pain of loved ones to protect their fragile ego.
So as I pour energy into changing my perceptions, loving unconditionally, and justifying the pain my partner causes, and do as much research as I can, the overwhelming message I find is that there is nothing wrong with my autistic partner. I can totally get on board with that, they are unique. Also that the paradigm of uninformed and prejudiced Neurotypical society norms have caused systemic problems and shame and stigma for the neurodiverse community. Again that makes perfect sense, just like most marginalized groups in America.
But, as someone who is an instant advocate for autism, and the confused and exhausted partner of a beautiful non-typical human, I feel unsupported. Maybe I was part of the problem before I became aware, but at this point, I have become a committed advocate.
So, where much of the literature that I find is either an antiquated and prejudiced view of autism, or on the other side of the coin, a declaration of how NTs are the problem and need to let go of their notions of communication, yours is the first publication that seems to suggest that not all words actions and behaviors are justified by an Autism diagnosis. Explainable but not necessarily justified. That Neurodiverse people are not helpless to make changes. They can grow and learn to improve their relationships and that is not being untrue to their identity. It is an act of love.
And while one’s intentions might be positive, it’s not ok to hurt those that you love and then show indifference to their pain. I say “show” because you can tell yourself all day that someones intentions are good, but if the behavior looks, sounds and feels like cruelty or emotional abuse then that functionally is your reality.
I truly appreciate the affirmation that you have provided me, a NT, for your advocacy for autistic people while also showing compassion for the difficulties experienced by NT partners. You can tell yourself all day that your partner has and feels empathy, but if you never see it, if they can’t show you the empathy, and instead, if it looks, sounds and feels like cruelty or indifference, then why would I want that in my life?
It is hard to even talk about an autistic person needing to change for their NT partner these days because that is so loaded and steeped with historical unfairness and injustice, but without compromise, and shared responsibility, then it is impossible to have true fairness, and the relationship descends into more of a caregiver situation than a romantic partnership.
Lastly, thank you to all of you who have commented. You have helped me to build my understanding and feel seen. And for anyone who loves someone with a different brain I commend you for your effort and integrity and strength of character!